GW fatigue

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GW fatigue

Postby Comrade_Nikolai » Sunday 17th February, 2013 1:08 pm

I feel that there are more than a few of us suffering from a general malaise of GW and their products. constant bentness in new books, poor balance and book design but mostly, their ridiculous pricing of things like eg. slaughterbeasts for £50...

I'm wondering whether anyone would like to give infinity another go. for those of you unfamiliar with infinity, its a small scale skirmish game with some of the most beautiful models you've ever seen. infinity website

before we throw the baby out with the bathwater, I've got a link here of an infinity tournament which may explain why we may have had some problems with it before. Having a read around, it has been suggested that on the density of terrain we usually play on, snipers and HMG's become godless killing machines; which is exactly what we found. So I think we may get more traction playing on denser terrain that doesn't expose others to the insane levels of chiselling that Rick and I are accustomed to thinking of.

If anyone is interested, I'd be happy to bring some stuff down and see if we can remember how to play.

Also, if anyone wants to return the society's copy of the 2nd edition rulebook, it would be appreciated.
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Re: GW fatigue

Postby Mattman » Sunday 17th February, 2013 3:50 pm

There are so many good looking games out there and quite a few that use a small army/skirmish approach. I was looking at Infinity a few months back, as like you say Nick, the models look nice.
If I was to pick another game to try, I would go for one of the Spartan games. The models for Dystopian Wars look awesome (as do the Uncharted Seas and Firestorm stuff) and if the rules are anything like US, they should be very simple to learn and play with. And Spartan have just released the current rules for US as a free PDF which you can download.
Malifaux looks intriguing, if you are into the steampunk, gothic, horror type games. Carnevale if you want something a bit twisted based in an alternate 18th Century Venice. Bushido if you want something oriental with spirits and deamons. Anima Tactics if you like you anime and manga stylings. There is also a new Judge Dredd miniature game due out soon.
And not forgetting Necromunda, which like several of the Specialist Games, has gone through a fan based up date which has fixed a number of the rules and is more balanced to play.

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Re: GW fatigue

Postby Comrade_Nikolai » Sunday 17th February, 2013 8:35 pm

not a fan of spartan games to be honest, the rules seem really simple and dice dependent, and I don't like the starter box mechanic they've got going which pens you into a poorly balanced fleet.
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Re: GW fatigue

Postby IronWithin » Sunday 17th February, 2013 9:43 pm

Not sure about the rules but Dystopian Wars mini's look beautiful and full of character. The cost of investing versus game interest (and worries the game itself might be awful) have been the thing stopping me so far.
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Re: GW fatigue

Postby Mattman » Monday 18th February, 2013 9:56 am

Comrade_Nikolai wrote:not a fan of spartan games to be honest, the rules seem really simple and dice dependent, and I don't like the starter box mechanic they've got going which pens you into a poorly balanced fleet.


Aren't most game dice dependant?

I think part of that problem is those people playing US at the society just play with the starter sets and haven't tried all the extra units available. I know me and Ian have talked about playing actual points value games so you can try different fleet combinations and unit tactics.
Not sure how DW plays compared to FA and US, but the models look really nice.
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Re: GW fatigue

Postby noodle » Monday 18th February, 2013 10:53 am

Well I'm not finding lots of broken rules in GW stuff any more than usual. Cost increases don't really affect me as I already have 99% of the models I'm ever going to get...

That said we have a FLAMES OF WAR campaign starting in late march :)

My scifi genre is all taken up with the campaign - 40k, epic, gothic, AI is quite enough.

My historical will be taken care of by FoW

However I am a bit disappointed with the warhammer rules at present.
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Re: GW fatigue

Postby Xactilian » Monday 18th February, 2013 1:59 pm

I've never played Uncharted Seas, but I have some experience with both Firestorm Armada and Dystopian Wars (and they all have the same mechanics anyway) and I can say that they are not truly THAT dice-dependent. Moreover, the rules scale very nicely, you can learn the basic rule set in about 5 minutes and immediately play the game; You can then get more in-depth with rules that are essentially optional, but still follow that core rule set. Unlike GW games in which basically every rule ever is going to have an effect in most games, and you need to be constantly checking up on them. I don't think that the Spartan games are any more dice-dependent that 40k games, and although the exploding sixes (when you roll a six, it counts for two points of whatever AND you roll another dice) can get out of hand, it's quite simple to have a house rule negating that, ie: a six can count for two, but you don't roll another dice. The models are lovely, they're all resin these days. The ENTIRE updated rule book (for Firestorm, I don't know about the others) is available as a PDF for free from their website, and the models are cheap. The starter fleets come with 500 points worth of models, my current fleet is worth almost 4 times that, in terms of equivalence with 40K, that's like 4000-6000 points. In total it has cost me about £110. I'm pretty sure that you can't get 4000 points of GW models for £110. Or even 2000 points.

If people are interested in Firestorm, see my post in this very forum :D
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Re: GW fatigue

Postby thepaintingmonkey » Monday 18th February, 2013 2:01 pm

Dystopian Legions (the 28mm skirmish game) has some lovely looking models. I think the rules are quite far away from the US system. Not that I think it's a bad system, just a little bit more random than a lot of other games (making it a fun little nonsense game rather than a 4 hour head-scratcher).

The Infinity models make me feel funny... might just pick up a dozen models for the hell of it. I guess that's the beauty of most of the games held up as alternatives to GW - you buy a dozen figures and you have your army.

So that means I can buy an infinity force AND a Dystopian Legions force right? Might as well get a Dystopian Wars force too whilst I'm at...
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Re: GW fatigue

Postby Comrade_Nikolai » Monday 18th February, 2013 2:23 pm

noodle wrote:Well I'm not finding lots of broken rules in GW stuff any more than usual. Cost increases don't really affect me as I already have 99% of the models I'm ever going to get...


Thanks for the contribution Duncan.
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Re: GW fatigue

Postby noodle » Monday 18th February, 2013 2:43 pm

Comrade_Nikolai wrote:
noodle wrote:Well I'm not finding lots of broken rules in GW stuff any more than usual. Cost increases don't really affect me as I already have 99% of the models I'm ever going to get...


Thanks for the contribution Duncan.


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Re: GW fatigue

Postby Talorian » Monday 18th February, 2013 5:21 pm

Over the years there have been a number of games which folks have brought along to try and encourage the group to play, some have worked for brief periods, but most have failed and probably have not been thought of since, the current list of games I can play that really aren't played anymore include;

Uncharted Seas, Pirates of the Spanish Maine, AGoT LCG, Necromunda, Blood Bowl, Legends of the High Seas, Infinity, Man O War, Confrontation, AT 43 and Gothic (though I know I could get games of this if I wanted them)

For some of these games, I only got to play them because I brought my collection along and enxouraged people to play. There are a couple of new games that I'd like to play more of, W Wing and The Hobbit, neither of which I have got regaular games of at the society (so far I've only managed 1 game of X Wing and I haven't been available when Victoria has to play the Hobbit). I'm really happy that Epic has picked up in the way that it has. I'd love to play more random games, any of the above list and/or Dystopian Wars/Legions, Malifaux, but given that I've spent an awful lot of money in the past on all sorts of games and they have died on their feet, I won't be spending money on random games without getting to the point where I actually get some games before it all disappears again.

I don't have any issues with GW's pricing structure, mostly because I don't have to care what something costs, if I want it for my armies then I'll buy it. However what it has done is stop me casually buying random models just because they are cool, even I can't really justify that anymore. Which if I'm honest do mean that I'm not cluttering up my home with random stuff that I'll never use.
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Re: GW fatigue

Postby Rick » Monday 18th February, 2013 7:15 pm

Hey Nik, I plead guilty to having stolen the Infinity 2nd ed rulebook. I'll bring it in on sat.

I'm becoming increasingly interested in playing a larger variety of games, specifically Flames of War, NetEpic, Warmachine/Hordes, AI and X-wing. I'd also love to try Infinity again, as I've said it works fine if you don't play on terrain with loads of holes in it :) I would like to wait until after the nationals though - I need to read and assimilate the rules for NetEpic, prep for running warmahordes and I'm also still settling in to FoW again so I've got a bit of a new game overload at the moment. Those of us with forces can have a few experimental games and if it works well maybe even organise a minor narrative campaign for future games (I'm thinking something along the lines of the linked kill team games we've done).

I'm keen to encourage more people to get into warmachine/hordes if there's any interest, I know a few of the new people have forces or are collecting them.

I like uncharted seas as a very casual coffee table game but for me that slot is now filled so I'm not really interested in similar games that just use different models.

For those saying a lot of games don't get played at the society, this is exactly why I created the minor games bulletin board thread. Part of the problem with more minor games is you can only count on people having the major systems with them for random pick up and play games, if you want to play other games its a good idea to arrange a game with someone the week before and advertise the fact on the forum to encourage other people to bring their stuff along. If you make the effort to ask around you can usually find someone wanting to play. But yes, I agree we do have a lot of games that are now dead which is why I'm more interested in resurrecting games some people already have models for than totally new ones.
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Re: GW fatigue

Postby Morph » Monday 18th February, 2013 8:16 pm

The vicious circle of course is that to get interest in a game going you need lots of people playing it already. I think you're looking at a buy in of about 6 people to say "we're all going to buy a force for this game and play it for a few weeks" and see how it goes. But then you've got the trouble with choosing a setting, miniatures and rules that everyone can get into. It's doable, but a tough call.

Infinity was ok. My problem was never the terrain but the over abundance of special abilities (same with warmachine really). Still I can find my force out if people want to give it a try again. (by the way Chris tells me he has a rulebook at his).

I'm always willing to play Uncharted Seas, though Firestorm Armarda and Dystopian Wars are probably too similar to US for me to get into. I would be one of the people that would grab a Dystopian Legions starter if enough other people were willing too. Heck this is probably true for most games. I've still got some Malifaux minis somewhere...

Of course what I really want to play is...
http://www.waylandgames.co.uk/batman-arkham-city-miniatures-game/cat_1557.html
...but it's probably terrible.
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Re: GW fatigue

Postby Morph » Monday 18th February, 2013 8:28 pm

The other thing that occurs to me is that a cheap option may be to find new rules for a game we already have minis for, e.g. some sort of fantasy rule system that can use the Warhammer stuff you've got. Not sure what though... there's Kings of War from Mantic which is like a clean and easy version of Warhammer, there must be others.

Or you could write them yourself.
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Re: GW fatigue

Postby BlackCat » Monday 18th February, 2013 8:59 pm

Morph wrote:The other thing that occurs to me is that a cheap option may be to find new rules for a game we already have minis for, e.g. some sort of fantasy rule system that can use the Warhammer stuff you've got. Not sure what though... there's Kings of War from Mantic which is like a clean and easy version of Warhammer, there must be others..


A while back (when I was having a fantasy game setting itch), I bought the 'Song of Blades and Glory' rule pack. It looks pretty fun actually and it'd be very happy if at some point someone fancies playing it ^_^

It is a fantasy skirmish game, you can use any 28mm models, it's rules are simple and you can (in theory) play a mini campaign in an evening....

The internet is full of people singing it's praises:

http://boardgamegeek.com/thread/324357/ ... st-solo-pl

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Song_of_Blades_and_Heroes

^_^

I'm always happy to try new games, though my brain still aches from trying to learn battlefleet gothic!
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Re: GW fatigue

Postby Comrade_Nikolai » Monday 18th February, 2013 10:49 pm

Talorian wrote:Over the years there have been a number of games which folks have brought along to try and encourage the group to play, some have worked for brief periods, but most have failed and probably have not been thought of since, the current list of games I can play that really aren't played anymore include; ...Confrontation,


To be fair, Confrontation was pretty huge in the society, the reason we stopped playing was Rackham's shift to a more warhammer based ruleset and consequent bankruptcy. Sadly, there is only room for one large scale fantasy or sci fi game.
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Re: GW fatigue

Postby noodle » Monday 18th February, 2013 11:27 pm

I think smaller games ie those which take up less space, are more likely to be a winner. I agree with rick we need to start using the minor games thread more.
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Re: GW fatigue

Postby thepaintingmonkey » Monday 18th February, 2013 11:32 pm

I think Scrowe's right that you need almost a small core of people who will all buy into a game and play it for a while to try and bring others in. I like the idea of more games floating around, but then that leads to Rick's point about bringing models so that you actually get a game. Also there's rules scramble. I have a hard enough time remembering one set of rules, but remembering two AND keeping them separate? No chance. That's probably just me though...

Despite these setbacks I think that a little variety could just be what the doctor ordered. I'm guessing the next four weeks are going to be pretty heavily nationals based for a lot of people, but post Nationals could be a really good time to push this.

I've been salivating over the infinity models since Nik suggested it. I think there's very little chance of me getting past a week or two without buying something, so I'll put my name in that particular hat. I'm a fan of Uncharted Seas too, so keen to play more of that. (I have a couple of fleets - both beyond the starter sets - if anyone wants to give it more of a go).
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Re: GW fatigue

Postby noodle » Monday 18th February, 2013 11:42 pm

From a campaigny point of view - the general reason I enjoy playing - it would be nice to get some planning involved so everyone doesn't go off and bring a different game. Sadly we can't all play everything, there just aren't enough hours in the week.

We have the 40k campaign - which already includes a number of games not just 40k (and I'd like to see more epic, gothic and ai... And even then we could try out some other skirmish rules sets in the same setting)

I'm planning a WWII campaign in April, which can also encompass a number of games systems.

The war hammer campaign has gone a bit flat since the empire in flames campaign... Which is fine it can look after itself until interest resumes...

I'm not sure there is enough time and people to do another *campaign* so ill likely not get interested without that particular kick...

Now if there was a game of thrones Wargame, I'd be all over that ;)
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Re: GW fatigue

Postby noodle » Tuesday 19th February, 2013 9:57 am

...however, if anyone wants to try alternative rules sets/models *within* the campaign settings we already have, I'm very much interested :D

Ideas I suppose would include a skirmish level game for 40k (rulessets anyone?), we've played alternatiev spaceships rules before too.
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