The End Times

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The End Times

Postby The Kremlin » Wednesday 3rd September, 2014 12:12 pm

Since there haven't been any sessions and I haven't really seen anyone to chat about it: what are people's thoughts?

It's some interesting background to my view, though I'm really worried about the prospect of other armies being combined, I don't want an "elf" army, or my lizards mixed into some combined force. Certainly I hear good things about the background book that forms part of the package.

Rules-wise? My initial impression is it brings things a lot closer to the current (6th+7th editions) model of 40k (with lords of war, unbound armies, allies, etc etc) - that is to say, it offers loads of brilliant potential for doing cool things if approached in that spirit, but also throws balance totally out the window to get there. For play down the club, hey, cool, bring out the dragons, the manticores, the engines of the gods, whatever. But if someone tries to be a bit more competitive... well, as a Lizards player, my first draft list had two slann, eight scarvets and some core. Not exactly what I call fun, or interesting - looks like it drives the game even further in the direction of favouring spam of undercosted characters (be they scarvets, dark elf masters, whatever).

Anyone planning new armies/some games using the ruleset?
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Re: The End Times

Postby Sam » Wednesday 3rd September, 2014 12:44 pm

For my Vampires, the Undead Legions list and Lore of Undeath would combine nicely to give me a chance to get more of my models/units on to the table in a single game.

I haven't yet seen the rules in full. I have read Nagash's rules in WD, and the themed battle report where he starts on his own against Settra's army which seemed like a neat way of redressing a power balance.

Though without such themed games, or a campaign setting, to temper the army builds I agree with you: this End Times expansion might just lead down a particularly broken path for casual gaming.

P.S. fingers crossed that I'm allowed Nagash at next year's Nationals!! :lol:
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Re: The End Times

Postby The Kremlin » Wednesday 3rd September, 2014 1:15 pm

For those not aware, the bit I'm worried about is the change to 50% allowances each for Lords and Heroes.

I'm not too bothered by Nagash, looks cool for prearranged/themed games in the same way as Lords of War in 40k, and not *that* bent for 1000pts anyway.

The Undead Legion list I just don't know enough about to comment yet, but I suspect if used with a theme rather than cherrypicking random good units, will be pretty cool. Not sure where the balance point is for it.

Hmmm, we were somewhat in need of a campaign setting...
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Re: The End Times

Postby Talorian » Wednesday 3rd September, 2014 4:38 pm

you still need a minimum of 25% core though and a minimum of 3 units not including characters, so it's not as though it's just going to be characters running about is it.

I've not fully read through my copy of the rules, but even at 1000 points Nagash is a beast, I wouldn't want to face him ever. He's going to summon a massive army before you can do much to him. Best way is to hope he miscasts and even after a reroll gets dragged off the table.

I do love the new models though :)
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Re: The End Times

Postby Sam » Thursday 4th September, 2014 9:32 am

The Kremlin wrote: I'm worried about is the change to 50% allowances each for Lords and Heroes.

I'm not too bothered by Nagash, looks cool for prearranged/themed games in the same way as Lords of War in 40k, and not *that* bent for 1000pts anyway.


Agreed. Nagash is formidable but far from invulnerable. Warmachines, massed posioned attacks, HKB, unlucky magic phase... there's plenty out there to deal with him.

However, a Legions list with 50% allowance spent on a combination of the best VC/TK lords and heroes choices could be horrific!

Particularly in conjunction with the other Legions benefits. From what research I've done *cough, internet forum searching, cough* TK and VC units are collectively reclassified as "Undead". This gives a wealth of advantages: i.e. removing the limitations of Nehekharan Undead rules so that spell effects and unit buffs benefit all Undead instead.

Also, Legions gain: no more crumble with General slaying, no Hierophant required, mutual support from crossover Lores of Vampires and Nehek affecting all units in the Legion...

Altogether these leave scope for all kinds of broken! :twisted:
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Re: The End Times

Postby Tikal » Thursday 4th September, 2014 5:09 pm

In my opinion (feel free to disagree) WFB has been back to hero hammer for some time now (just look at the armies we took to nationals which is relatively low level tournament) so it does not change much really - and as Ian says prob still need x units (to hide from cannons if nothing else). And at least the background is beginning to move forward - once you do that you have to do a bit less retconning cough cough..... maybe

Have not read new rules but i do wonder how VC and TK will combine as TK characters abilities mean you could have WS6 ghouls etc, easier access to lore of light etc certainly feel two armies do complement each other though they do combine some of the worst core in game unless some units are recosted.
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Re: The End Times

Postby The Kremlin » Friday 5th September, 2014 10:52 am

Just immediately, some things that come to mind for the Legions:

-TK units being able to march within 12 of the general is pretty big. Particularly for Carrion and Necrosphinx, I suspect.
-Can you take old special characters? Or do their new versions override them? I'm thinking Count Manfredd + Casket for bonus Power dice here...
-A Vampire Lord seems like it'll really do wonders for TK combat power.
-Nekehara and Light buffs seem nice pairings with Crypt Horrors in particular.
-As you say, high-WS Ghouls...
-I do wonder if you can use the Lore of Undeath to summon Sepulchral Stalkers. If so, hey, that's a quite nice way of removing a low-I hard target that is pressuring you. I suspect we'll see other lores over Undeath though.
-Hmmm. More I think about it, the more it seems scary, but I'm not sure what fits in the points. Casket and two Catapults, VampLord (Manfredd if allowed) in a bunker with several Banshees, Crypt Horrors, Ghoul core unit with a Tomb Prince, Fellbats for redirectors, TK archers to fill the rest of core, and then a Crypt Horror unit to fight with - seems scary. How much are Terrorgheist again? My head is giving me 205 and 220 as numbers, and I'm not sure which is right. At 2400, the former allows dual terrorgheist dual catapult (though no casket). At 2500 both allow it. Could make for a nasty semidefensive army with Death magic, catapults, and the geese to kill stuff that gets close.

On herohammer:

I dunno. I just... almost any list I write is probably better if I put 8 scarvets in. I was running 4 in some lists before, and already feeling that felt a bit spammy, but it really is the best way to go in the current metagame - this may change with Legions and other armies having more characters of course!

EDIT:

At a very vague guess for some points costs:

TK Lv4 Light
TK Lv4 Nekehara (costed currently at 200 each)

Tomb Prince to go in Ghouls (costed at a guess of 150)

625 core (inc big unit of ghouls, skeleton archer bunker)

9 crypt horrors, champion
9 crypt horrors, champion
Terrorgheist
Terrorgheist
Catapult
Catapult

That's circa 2500. Can always drop some stuff (maybe you don't need two Horror units) for some more Light mages if you want go down that route. Possibly needs to go to 2*8 horrors for some fellbats at very least.
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Re: The End Times

Postby Sam » Friday 5th September, 2014 1:10 pm

The Kremlin wrote:Just immediately, some things that come to mind for the Legions:
-I do wonder if you can use the Lore of Undeath to summon Sepulchral Stalkers


I believe so. One of the spells is concerned with raising War beasts or Swarms - the boosted version allowing you to summon Monstrous Beasts instead.

Hoping to acquire the book this weekend to be able to verify all of this!

I am curious to see how the Signature Spell for Lore of Nehekhara will work. I was reading the description in the TK army book last night. The target unit "may make a normal move as if it were the Remaining Moves phase." (book not in hand presently, done from memory - but I did check it carefully!)

So my powergaming wheels have whirred into motion. If I may lead you down my twisted, megalomaniacal train of thought:

Previously TK couldn't march. So that spell effect was a move = Unit's printed M value. Pretty good. But now with Legions rules...? Can units march in the movement phase (by virtue of being in General's 12" bubble) then march again under the influence of Nehek's signature spell? Terrifyingly good, if so :o

Even if it's ruled/FAQ'd to be just a non-march move, that's still some fast-moving Black Knight buses, Terrorgheists, Necrosphinxs... how many fast scary things do you care to list?

Hey, why not cast Van Hel's on them, too? :shock:
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Re: The End Times

Postby Sam » Sunday 7th September, 2014 11:35 am

With the Liber Mortis in my hand, I can address some queries. I shall try not to mention specifics (i.e. exact points costs, copy/paste rules etc.) to avoid infringing on GW's IP.

The Kremlin wrote:-Can you take old special characters? Or do their new versions override them? I'm thinking Count Manfredd + Casket for bonus Power dice here...


The only Special Characters available from the original army books, with rules unchanged, are Khalida and Apophas. Other notables, such as Mannfed and Arkhan, are re-written as Mortarchs with new stats, abilities, magic items and/or special rules. They are only available to a Legions army in these new incarnations.

Mortarch Mannfred is... different... to VC Count Mannfred, I wouldn't necessarily say better. He has a combined profile with his Abyssal mount, giving high toughness, wounds and attacks. He retains previous magic items and Master of the Black Arts. Combine these with his new special rule Dark Cunning* and he becomes a potential magic power-house.

Probably the best of the Mortarchs IMO. However, over 100points more than Count Mannfred, and loses the Loremaster special rule.

*Dark Cunning: Mannfred may sacrifice Power Dice for extra attacks, or vice versa, attacks for Power Dice (maximum of 3 either way)

The Kremlin wrote:-I do wonder if you can use the Lore of Undeath to summon Sepulchral Stalkers. If so, hey, that's a quite nice way of removing a low-I hard target that is pressuring you. I suspect we'll see other lores over Undeath though.


Yes indeed, but it is difficult (unless you're using Nagash or Mortarch Arkhan for their abilities to raise multiplied points values to Summoned units). The casting value of this spell is equivalent to that of Transformation of Kadon, or the boosted version of Speed of Light. Then, you'll need a couple of Raise the Dead** counters in play for enough points to achieve minimum unit size to be eligible to summon Sepulchral Stalkers.

Same sort of thing goes for Terrorgheists, units of TK chariots, Necropolis Knights... the points allowance for the Summoned units given by the various spells is just a little short to allow you to summon every available unit type outright. You need the counters, or Nagash/Arkhan, to do it with ease.

**Raise the Dead: Lore of Undeath attribute. Each time a friendly wizard successfully casts a summoning spell from this lore, gain a Raise the Dead counter. These may be spent to add X additional points to Summoned units. X is equal to the cost of a single Crypt Ghoul.

Counters appear to remain on the table until you choose to spend them, so you are allowed to stockpile over a number of turns. Two other non-Summoning spells (one an Augment and one a Direct Damage) can also generate counters if you successfully follow up by causing wounds on enemies.
Last edited by Sam on Monday 8th September, 2014 8:39 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: The End Times

Postby Sam » Sunday 7th September, 2014 11:52 am

Finally, to update you on my own query with regards to Movement and spell effects.

I can find no reason printed in the rules as to why a unit couldn't make a march move under the influence of Incantation of the Desert Wind. It simply states "normal move as if it were the Remaining Moves sub-pahse." So as long as units affected manage to stay within 12" of the General so as to be eligible to march.

So theoretically (I fully expect a FAQ in the pipeline here):
- Unit can march in the Movement phase
- Unit can march again with Desert Wind
- Do it again with the secondary effect of Lore of Undeath's Breath of Darkness (which has the same wording as Desert Wind)
- Finally, move a further 8" using Vanhel's

I hope the opponent brought their dispel dice! :shock:

I grant you that most opponents simply won't let you get away with this! Also, I appreciate that you need a pretty fast and mobile General to make this work. But the scope for a hghly mobile, fast moving Legion makes them a solid threat, I think. Consider Vampire Lord, Knight bus and Terrorgheist escort. In principle you could be dropping Terrorgheists behind the enemy battleline on Turn 1!
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