commentary on codex: CSM

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commentary on codex: CSM

Postby IronWithin » Sunday 8th December, 2013 2:45 pm

Daemons can be appalling, Chaos Space Marines is possibly the weakest Codex save Sisters there is at the moment. :oops: :?
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Re: Aleph Sector Campaign 2014

Postby Comrade_Nikolai » Sunday 8th December, 2013 7:27 pm

not Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Dark Eldar, Guard, Orks or Space Wolves? Sadly, I don't think any of these older books can really hold their own anymore without allies.

Chaos aren't that bad. Like everyone else, they get a few broken things (actually, mainly the one broken thing) and the rest of the army is a bit pap compared to the newer books. They're not bad as an ally to chaos daemons though as all it will take is a daemon prince, some cultists and a helldrake for your allies.
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Re: Aleph Sector Campaign 2014

Postby IronWithin » Sunday 8th December, 2013 8:41 pm

I don't agree, Dark Angels are much better than Chaos Space Marines. CSM have one trully broken unit and like you said everything else is either "...okay", mediocre or downright rubbish, not so with DA, who have a nice mix of good units but nothing truly hideous. Dark Angels, Space Wolves and Blood Angels suffer because the Helldrake exist. I think Imperial Guard and Orks are still very much viable armies it's just they have less truly viable lists (IG with their flyers are rather nasty, but Horde guard aren't what they were). Orks do several things really well. Dark Eldar are 40k a bit on hard mode (though personally, I think DE are what Eldar should be, Fast, fragile and deadly, it's just a shame they don't do it so well anymore)
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Re: Aleph Sector Campaign 2014

Postby noodle » Sunday 8th December, 2013 9:53 pm

Way to derail my thread :p
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Re: Aleph Sector Campaign 2014

Postby Talorian » Monday 9th December, 2013 12:25 am

I think saying that those armies are only rubbish because such and such exists just goes to strengthen Niks argument. Hell Drakes give CSM an edge that all those other armies just don't have.

No anti flier in Space Wolves is a huge downside, sure thunder wolf cavalry can be great against things on the ground, but they can't hurt a flier, at all, ever. So that's a huge downside against lots of armies.

Orks are just bobbins, and saying they are better than CSM is just plain wrong, they for me are in real need of a rewrite.

Why should Eldar be fragile? They have been around forever, they should have the best armour to represent that, maybe the new book went too far, I'm very much looking at Wave Serpents, which are immense, but then Eldar have sucked for a long long time, so I'm enjoying not being the underdog for once.
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Re: Aleph Sector Campaign 2014

Postby Comrade_Nikolai » Monday 9th December, 2013 1:53 pm

IronWithin wrote:Dark Angels are much better than Chaos Space Marines.
[citation needed]

Also I like this:
IronWithin wrote:CSM have one trully broken unit and like you said everything else is either "...okay", mediocre or downright rubbish

IronWithin wrote:IG with their flyers are rather nasty, but Horde guard aren't what they were


I'll paraphrase the logic here:
Chaos suck, despite having one of the most broken models in the game.
Guard are better than chaos, because whilst they may suck, they have access to one of the best flyers in the game.
:roll:
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Re: Aleph Sector Campaign 2014

Postby Morph » Monday 9th December, 2013 2:11 pm

Nids are easily the worst. I mean... I lost to Duncan.
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Re: Aleph Sector Campaign 2014

Postby Talorian » Monday 9th December, 2013 2:34 pm

Morph wrote:Nids are easily the worst. I mean... I lost to Duncan.


He was so mean to you, and on your birthday as well.
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Re: Aleph Sector Campaign 2014

Postby Comrade_Nikolai » Monday 9th December, 2013 3:00 pm

I thought he was quite merciful really. What with it being such a quick game. Must have been the second quickest game of 40k I've ever ever seen.
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Re: Aleph Sector Campaign 2014

Postby The Kremlin » Monday 9th December, 2013 3:19 pm

Was the first Sam by any chance?
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Re: Aleph Sector Campaign 2014

Postby IronWithin » Monday 9th December, 2013 4:05 pm

Comrade_Nikolai wrote:Sarcastic Waffling


:lol: :roll: No that's not what I said, you are taking 2 and 2 and making 40. I won't derail this thread with this, but yes 4th ed IG are better than the 6th ed Chaos Space Marines and no it's not because of flyers, the flyers have little to do with it in of themselves. I will explain but not in this thread.
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Re: Aleph Sector Campaign 2014

Postby Morph » Monday 9th December, 2013 4:32 pm

Talorian wrote:
Morph wrote:Nids are easily the worst. I mean... I lost to Duncan.


He was so mean to you, and on your birthday as well.


That's why I shall continue derailing this thread. Petty revenge!
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Re: Aleph Sector Campaign 2014

Postby Comrade_Nikolai » Monday 9th December, 2013 5:13 pm

IronWithin wrote:
Comrade_Nikolai wrote:Sarcastic Waffling


Oh my god, you can't even get your insults right. Waffling is completely the wrong word to describe a 3 line paraphrasing... I would have gone with:
Comrade_Nikolai wrote:sarcastic rebuttal



IronWithin wrote: :lol: :roll: No that's not what I said, you are taking 2 and 2 and making 40.

Its literally what you said, thats why I quoted you...
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Re: commentary on codex: CSM

Postby Comrade_Nikolai » Monday 9th December, 2013 5:17 pm

This thread has now been split from the aleph sector campaign. Furthermore, I really don't think mine and Mike's arguing is really of interest or benefit to anyone else, so any other mods should feel free to lock/delete this thread. (I'm not going to because of a conflict of interest) (and when I say interest...)
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Re: commentary on codex: CSM

Postby Talorian » Monday 9th December, 2013 5:27 pm

Nik, I don't think you'll ever convince Mike that his particular army Codex is better than any of the others.
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Re: commentary on codex: CSM

Postby IronWithin » Monday 9th December, 2013 10:26 pm

Actually if someone resorted to something other than the Hellturkey argument I might. But it's the one I always hear I it irritates the hell out of me and it's what always gets me to bite unfortunately, the damned thing is a dirty word ;)

EDIT: I decided to give a more accurate response.
I guess it's more accurate to say while I like the Chaos background more than any other, the IG codex is better representative of the IG themselves, and even now it has plenty of builds that are good, character and effective (Mechanised, horde, Air Cav, Artillery), while some have suffered a bit (Horde I think, the amount of ignore cover out there now makes it painful) I still think they are a very effective codex. The reason for this is it has more than one unit that is effective. The problem with the IG codex is nothing to do with design but one of age, Chaos has an issue of design. The bugbear is the Chaos Space Marines themselves, aren't that good. Khorne Berzerkers cannot get into assault effectively for example, Chaos Space Marines run away more than Imperial Guard with a commissar, and that's the thing, every unit is an island with 0 interaction with another, each new codex released has elements that work together and act as force multipliers. For example; Tau markerlights, Eldar Scatter lasers, Space Marine unit altering abilities (Bikes as troops etc.), reliable Deep Strike, Ultramarine Chapter Tactics, Dark Angel Banner, shrouding bikes, Divination, Daemon, Grimoires, grimoires, musicians and banners. IG was the pioneer of this form of synergy, with the chain of command, and it's still effective.

None of this synergy is present Codex Chaos Space Marines.
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Re: commentary on codex: CSM

Postby Comrade_Nikolai » Monday 9th December, 2013 11:35 pm

IronWithin wrote:Actually if someone resorted to something other than the Hellturkey argument I might. But it's the one I always hear I it irritates the hell out of me and it's what always gets me to bite unfortunately, the damned thing is a dirty word ;)


its not really resorting. Its like saying lizardmen are crap without a slann (old book, I haven't read the new one properly yet). While it may technically be true (not sure it is, but they're nowhere near as powerful), lizards were still overall a top tier army because the slann (or slanns) were that good.

You can't take out one of the best and most commonly used units then rate your army as crap and expect people to agree with you.

IronWithin wrote: For example; Tau markerlights, Eldar Scatter lasers, Space Marine unit altering abilities (Bikes as troops etc.), reliable Deep Strike, Ultramarine Chapter Tactics, Dark Angel Banner, shrouding bikes, Divination, Daemon, Grimoires, grimoires, musicians and banners. IG was the pioneer of this form of synergy, with the chain of command, and it's still effective.

None of this synergy is present Codex Chaos Space Marines.


If you allow ultramarine chapter tactics and bikes as troops, then why would you discount Typhus' plague zombies, obliterators, or Chaos marks and marked HQ's changing elite slots to troops? They seem to do the same thing. :?
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Re: commentary on codex: CSM

Postby IronWithin » Tuesday 10th December, 2013 12:54 am

I didn't talk about Typhus because I didn't talk about Tigurius or Calgar, who offer superior choices - I'll park that for now those because Special Characters is a slight can 'o' worms. If you want me to elaborate I will

Marks are variable depending on what part of the codex you're talking about. They don't grant synergy to the army they provide boosts to individual units, and perhaps the Ultramarine chapter tactics were a bad example, however the Space Marine Codex is one I'm not as familiar with.
In terms of boosts the Marks of Chaos are decent on characters but not so good on basic Chaos Space Marines, and this is because they are badly priced, A unit of Nurgle marked marines (not Plague Marines) with CCW, pistol and bolters cost nearly 20 points each and run away just as fast as guardsmen. I'm not saying the individual upgrade, but the prohibitive cost makes it ineffective. Other unit boosts are icons, which one could argue are comparable to Commissars, however icons cannot avoid being sniped. It's also leaves a bit of a bad taste that one Space Marine Chapter gets Sergeants granting FnP for free whereas Chaos pays 35 points and can be easily sniped out. For the relative cost of a tricked out unit of Marines, they are rather fragile, and don't have a good damage output, and most tellingly, those boosts are it, there is no trick to further increase the potential of that unit. When you write a list you find there always seems to be a vital cog missing, that cog is being able to buff units in battle.

In terms of Eldar, Daemons and Tau, each codex has it's own way to individual boosts to units (Wave Serpents, Drones, Champion upgrades) and these are good, comparable to Chaos but correctly priced as far as I can tell. The difference is these units can then interact with each other.

One good thing that has come out mind is Be'lakor, with guaranteed decent buffs from Telepathy.
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Re: commentary on codex: CSM

Postby noodle » Tuesday 10th December, 2013 9:07 am

For me the disappointing thing, as ever, with chaos as a whole is it's lack of theming. There should be "rewards" for taking all nurgle etc, and you should be able to take chaos guard. In fact chaos guard ought to be a codex with a range of new guard models... I'd so fall for that :D

Chaos marines ought to be legion themed more strongly than they are, so on that I agree with mike. However I don't think the CSM codex is weak, rather the builds you want to see used are weak. Not much different to guard then, as I find myself in the same boat - with an army that could be very good if I took all the things I don't want to... However escalation and stronghold does actually mean I can bolster that.
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Re: commentary on codex: CSM

Postby Comrade_Nikolai » Tuesday 10th December, 2013 12:19 pm

IronWithin wrote:Marks are variable depending on what part of the codex you're talking about. They don't grant synergy to the army they provide boosts to individual units, and perhaps the Ultramarine chapter tactics were a bad example, however the Space Marine Codex is one I'm not as familiar with.
In terms of boosts the Marks of Chaos are decent on characters but not so good on basic Chaos Space Marines, and this is because they are badly priced, A unit of Nurgle marked marines (not Plague Marines) with CCW, pistol and bolters cost nearly 20 points each and run away just as fast as guardsmen. I'm not saying the individual upgrade, but the prohibitive cost makes it ineffective. Other unit boosts are icons, which one could argue are comparable to Commissars, however icons cannot avoid being sniped. It's also leaves a bit of a bad taste that one Space Marine Chapter gets Sergeants granting FnP for free whereas Chaos pays 35 points and can be easily sniped out. For the relative cost of a tricked out unit of Marines, they are rather fragile, and don't have a good damage output, and most tellingly, those boosts are it, there is no trick to further increase the potential of that unit. When you write a list you find there always seems to be a vital cog missing, that cog is being able to buff units in battle.


Ah, an argument I can get on board with. Yeah, Chaos marines are overpriced in both CSM and in the black legion supplement. Its a big problem with the book, especially as they're often veterans of the long war and ideally should be pretty badass. I think the generic marine has been going downhill for quite a while, but I'm not really sure what you can do to fix it and bring them up to how they're portrayed in the fluff or eg. deathwatch. Mainly as you'd have to do all of the relevant books at once, which isn't going to happen anytime soon.

noodle wrote:For me the disappointing thing, as ever, with chaos as a whole is it's lack of theming. There should be "rewards" for taking all nurgle etc, and you should be able to take chaos guard. In fact chaos guard ought to be a codex with a range of new guard models... I'd so fall for that :D


They kind of are as long as you take allies... *ahem* :roll:
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