Stronghold Assault and Escalation

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Re: Stronghold Assault and Escalation

Postby seriesofbadjokes » Wednesday 11th December, 2013 6:38 pm

Seeing as all this new stuff is being unleashed, I take it there would be no objections to me using the Space Marine Legion list for my Emperor's Children from now on then?
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Re: Stronghold Assault and Escalation

Postby noodle » Wednesday 11th December, 2013 8:12 pm

Sure go for it ;)
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Re: Stronghold Assault and Escalation

Postby Comrade_Nikolai » Wednesday 11th December, 2013 11:18 pm

Er... what?

Could you ask that as: "Seeing as all this new stuff is being unleashed, would anyone mind me using the Space Marine Legion list for my Emperor's Children from now on?"
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Re: Stronghold Assault and Escalation

Postby Talorian » Thursday 12th December, 2013 11:37 am

I still think the legions lists are better than the Codex Space Marines books, but as I intend on doing an Ultramarines Legion as and when the book with them in it comes out, I have no specific objections to you using them now.

I might have issues if you used Fulgrim in every game though ;)
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Re: Stronghold Assault and Escalation

Postby noodle » Thursday 12th December, 2013 11:58 am

Yes... Campaign fluff wise I would want to know why Fulgrim is in every skirmish in the 42nd Millenium...
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Re: Stronghold Assault and Escalation

Postby seriesofbadjokes » Thursday 12th December, 2013 2:05 pm

Not a problem, not got a completed Fulgrim model to use atm. I'll only use him in 2500+ pts games anyway, and tbh I've not seen the Legion list in action so whether for its points it's a better list than using the Space Marine codex. I'll put a sample army list together and see what people think of it.
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Re: Stronghold Assault and Escalation

Postby The Kremlin » Thursday 12th December, 2013 4:09 pm

Sounds good, I'd be interested to have a look.
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Re: Stronghold Assault and Escalation

Postby noodle » Friday 13th December, 2013 7:11 pm

So the forgeworld list of toys is out. Basically all lords of war are allowed. Hooray I can actually play with the toys I've bought! And that's the point... To be fair we used to play with super heavies occasionally in years past before apocalypse - which kind of "outlawed" them in anything but apocalypse.

They are fine in campaign/casual play. We can meta against uber units and since they are points on legs I'm not at all sure a big thing is anything like a certain win...

Tournaments I foresee being "lords of war allowed" or not allowed, simple as that.
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Re: Stronghold Assault and Escalation

Postby The Kremlin » Friday 13th December, 2013 8:14 pm

Ooh, Reaver titan...
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Re: Stronghold Assault and Escalation

Postby noodle » Friday 13th December, 2013 8:53 pm

...and the Phantom :P

It does mean I might actually buy a warhound titan now, as I might have more chance of using it... Until it loses me every game by being a truck load of points on a target I can't hide... And I don't think it works in 1500 points... :roll:

Thing I like about stronghold and :roll: escalation is the very "fantastic" element it brings to the game, allowing mighty titans, forts and doomsday weapons! If anyone builds something immensely broken with a Revenant for example, I will find a way of fielding a Reaver at 2000 points :D ... Plus if a build is blatantly broken it won't get any games... Er.

Sure, it will mess with tournament play, but that's for tournament organisers to worry about!
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Re: Stronghold Assault and Escalation

Postby seriesofbadjokes » Friday 13th December, 2013 11:37 pm

Personally I doubt you'll see many Escalation tournaments, although it'd be interesting to see what people would take to them.

Btw, according to my Heresy list book Lords of War can only be taken in a battle of 2,000 pts or more and may not make up more than 25% of the army's total points cost. Is that rule in the Escalation book?
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Re: Stronghold Assault and Escalation

Postby The Kremlin » Friday 13th December, 2013 11:45 pm

Apparently not.
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Re: Stronghold Assault and Escalation

Postby noodle » Saturday 14th December, 2013 12:03 am

No you can take any proportion. There is even a scenario of lord of war vs. (!)

It remains to be seen if day a 1500 list with a revenant or whatever actually works in practice. Not a whole lot of scoring units and if your lord of war does, you lose. A bit binary...
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Re: Stronghold Assault and Escalation

Postby Talorian » Saturday 14th December, 2013 12:25 am

If you want to try it out over the holidays I can give it a whirl, but I expect the Revenant will come out on top in most games.
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Re: Stronghold Assault and Escalation

Postby noodle » Saturday 14th December, 2013 9:37 am

Yeah might be an idea to test it out!

I think the Revenant might be a special case, though the AV14 front of a warhound might be a problem too!
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Re: Stronghold Assault and Escalation

Postby The Kremlin » Monday 16th December, 2013 3:29 pm

Something that seems to be popping up here and there on the internet:

The Void Shield Generator. Is it, in fact, a factor that may bring more aggressive armies back to the forefront in the previously shooting-dominated metagame of 6th?

I will admit to not being 100% au fait with how expensive a generator network is, nor indeed exactly where it can be placed (your half? your deployment zone?). Fairly sure I've seen stuff about putting Aegis forward of your deployment zone to move up into though.

As such, it seems likely that you can place void shield generators covering at least some of the mid field. What this permits you to do is advance into that midfield, and your opponent will need to move into your void shield bubble to be able to shoot without downing the shields first. This in practice will tend to mean their army coming closer to your assault-based army. If they do not, they have to down the shields, significantly reducing the damage you take on the way in - especially if running a vehicle-based assault.

(I imagine a void shield generator probably gives a decent cover save if you sit behind it, too.)

This is relevant to space marine rhino armies (Raven Guard or White Scars in vanguarding Rhinos can have a field day here, as can Land Raider-based strategies), their Chaos equivalents, Ork vehicle-based assault strategies (trukks and battlewagons), to bike armies like mine (sure I can model some drop-pod-equivalent void shield generators fired from the air/space/etc to cover an assault), probably works to cover Necron strategies based around Wraiths and the like... I'm sure more experienced players than me can think of more.

(I will admit, I tend to figure that void shield generators are a bit bent for their cost, but at least if the above theory/internethammer is true, they favour the aggressive player more.)
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Re: Stronghold Assault and Escalation

Postby IronWithin » Monday 16th December, 2013 4:31 pm

Void shields cost 50 for one void shield, you can then purchase additional shields up to 3 in total for 25 points each, so generally it's 100 points, plus any extras like razor wire (difficult/dangerous terrain to infantry), tank traps (impassable terrain for tanks without skimmer) and walls (trenches basically in 6" pieces). The one I would think would get used is the fortification combo building of 3 void shields each fully upgraded for 300 points total giving essentially 9 AV12 HP on your army that regenerate.

For those that sit back and shoot yeah, it's hard on them because they have to take down 9 ablative shields before they can touch those inside. However, like you said those that race forward don't really have much to fear, like your army.

If you're following the rules exactly (which we don't) fortifications are deployed after sides are chosen during terrain deployment, so yes in that case you can deploy them outside your deployment zone. The way the society works generally as I've seen it is fortifications are put down during deployment like the rest of your army in your deployment zone, scenery is moved around a bit according to how things are and sometimes stuff is removed.

I think depending on who your fighting, they could be a nightmare or an annoyance. A drop pod Marine army will just drop inside and you lovely 300 points sink is suddenly useless. Against Eldar and Tau I think they can just blast through them. IG I think struggle more but equally benefit from them the most (lots of long range, kind of squishy up close)
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Re: Stronghold Assault and Escalation

Postby The Kremlin » Monday 16th December, 2013 4:39 pm

Hmmm, fair enough, didn't realise society did it like that. Would people actively object to fortifications deployed outside your deployment zone?

Note: I'm not at all sure I actually intend to take any, I'm just raising it for discussion and to see if this can help out any of the more assault-minded players who might otherwise have been having a hard time of 6th. It'd seem tailor-made for Orks for example...

Anyway, 150-200pts for two 2-3 shield generators placed about 6" in front of your deployment zone and about 12" apart could give a nice midfield area to move into and cover your advance for the first turn. For an army like mine, it'd allow scouting into the umbrella and then some degree of protection from the firepower of the likes of Tau armies. Yeah, they can take them down, but that's firepower not going into the bikes/rhinos/trukks/battlewagons/etc etc.

I suspect it may also lead to diversification of firepower, with eg melta weapons used to take down the shields that won't reach the advancing assault army before the longer ranged stuff opens up. Does mean army design has to change to take into account the possibility. If all your firepower is in a few units like Broadsides, you may be forced to waste them blowing down shields if you can't open the shields first with lighter weapons.

Basically just idly throwing ideas around :-)
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Re: Stronghold Assault and Escalation

Postby noodle » Monday 16th December, 2013 5:44 pm

We deploy terrain first, then objectives, then decide sides... THEN deploy fortifications not within 1" of deployed terrain.

It's probably fair to say you can remove a piece to fit it in, within reason (not a mountain please)...

Nothing about setting up in your own zone. I regularly place my aegis line in front of me so I can advance to it...
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Re: Stronghold Assault and Escalation

Postby The Kremlin » Monday 16th December, 2013 6:10 pm

Cool :-)

How big do people think generators should be, roughly? That's another discussion that has emerged on the internet.

Anyway, here's to the triumphant return of the Rhino rush (maybe).
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