Stronghold Assault and Escalation

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Re: Stronghold Assault and Escalation

Postby Sam » Tuesday 10th December, 2013 1:57 pm

IronWithin wrote:Superheavies don't superheavies with D-weapons do. A baneblade costs 100 points more than 3 Leman russes which have the same number of HP and equivalent firepower.

Superheavies aren't the game changer, D-weapons are.


I'm inclined to disagree - Yes D-weapons are undoubtedly a game changer, but I believe Superheavies will have a significant influence on the meta whether or not they come with D-weapons.

In your example- 3x Leman Russ vs. 1x Baneblade:

Firepower: Better AP, Higher Strength and reduced impact of bad scatter (i.e. much larger template) make the Baneblade cannon superior to my eye.

Resilience: Higher AV for the Baneblade coupled to all those HPs

Durability: I lose 3 HPs from my 3x Leman Russ... my effective firepower is reduced by a factor of 1/3. I lose 3 HPs from my Baneblade... still firing, and likely operating, at full effectiveness.

Points value: those 100 extra points probably go some way to account for the extra special rules the Baneblade gets for being a superheavy. Admittedly, they might not all be awesome or universally helpful in every game, but they would (and indeed should) come at a cost.

Game play & Victory conditions: alteration to "Seize the Initiative" roll, and extra points for killing said Baneblade over the victory conditions my opponent would achieve for killing the equivalent value in Leman Russ, will likely change my and/or my opponent's priorities and strategy. Of course, as always this is dependent on the scenario being played.

I had already been considering a similar working example for Tau with Tigershark vs. equivalent points in Barracudas... and I could only conclude that the Tigershark would perform, and be reacted to, differently than to the equivalent points in Barracudas to such an extent as to significantly "change the game" for both players.
Last edited by Sam on Tuesday 10th December, 2013 2:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Stronghold Assault and Escalation

Postby noodle » Tuesday 10th December, 2013 2:06 pm

Superheavies aren't the game changer, D-weapons are.
- evidence needed!

At present ONE D-Weapon isn't much of a threat. Sure they bypass a lot of saves, but they don't remove models from the board the way they used to... But maybe they are a "game changer", just not in a particularly bad way. Its something new to have to deal with... It does mean that some people will have to have a look at their tactics (especially people with binary armies which are all about getting their one killy unit into combat or something).

Saturation of D is a problem (so is saturation of a lot of things). This is my concern with one possible build of the revenant. If it didn't take pulsars or only took one I think it would be a lot less of a total monster.

Sam - I agree with your analysis. I feel my baneblade was as effective as a 3xRuss in my game. However I also had 2 Russ and 2 basilisks *as well* so I was pie pie pie... 3 Russ are (slightly) more mobile. They are easier to hide. They don't give away 3VPs if they die...
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Re: Stronghold Assault and Escalation

Postby Talorian » Tuesday 10th December, 2013 3:06 pm

The issue with the Revenant picking weapons is that it's either all D or no D, it can't pick and choose it's weapons as other Titans can. Not that I'm saying that the Hell Storm Templates are bad, but the D Weapons shots for the same points, both variants are 900 points, is better. I think the change to allow the Revenant to move 36" and still shoot was a bad one, in previous editions, it had to forgo shooting in order to jump. Plus like all super heavies, it's either completely intact or destroyed. I would like to see the book keeping back in rather than removed all together.

I do think this is all a bit of a pointless debate though, I'm the only person currently with any Revenant Titans and I have no intentions of taking them in normal games. Mosly because they can annihilate an enemy army over 2 turns on their own and so would be boring (I may have to take one to the Nationals though!) So let us instead focus on the 7 inch S10 AP1 ignoring cover blast primary weapon which is going to do just as much damage as most D Weapons will. ;)

D weapons are only a real issue if you plan on taking models that it can kill with a single hit when normal shooting can't, but even then, most of the ones that annoy me are fliers or flying monsters, so those Super Heavies won't be able to target them with their D Weapons unless they hit the deck or hover. There are plenty of other weapons and rules which will strip away cover saves and cause instant death meaning that it's not a huge stretch to get to the D Weapons. It's just the next step along the progression to playing bigger games and spending more money on toys.

I have far more issues with the basic rules nerfing many of my armies (all deep stirking Sanguinary guard army, Combat orientated Dark Eldar, fliers screwing over my Space Wolves) and the new Harlequin rules sucking balls, long before Escalation came out and I'm sure that watching Duncan's Super Heavy tanks explode will bring me a lot of joy that I wouldn't have got to see as regualrly otherwise.

I'd also like to point out that in the escalation games thus far, Duncan got smushed by TauDar, when he took a D weapon and then smushed some Nids, when he didn't have a D Weapon. Very small sample granted, but I'm sure D Weapons aren't about to become the be all and end all of the game.
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Re: Stronghold Assault and Escalation

Postby noodle » Tuesday 10th December, 2013 3:18 pm

If we generally stick to a Lord of war max 1/3 your army guidance, this isn't an issue.

Game Size LoW
1000 333
1500 500 - Some IG SH
1650 550 - Some IG SH
1750 583
2000 667 - All IG SH
2500 833 - Stompa, Thunderhawk...
3000 1000 - Revenant


As for str 10 ap1 Ignoring cover pies, we all need to get better at spreading out. So many people bunch up their units... On Saturday I thought my huge blast would remove lots of gargoyles in one go. It didn't.

For me escalation is appropriately named. Its the missing step between 40k and apocalypse that to be fair we often played in the past... Before apocalypse existed you could field mighty engines of war but only very occasionally with the opponent's permission. Now I can actually play with my supers (well, one at a time!).

Its actually energised me to build (er start construction on) my Fellblade, and will inevitable see me buy at least one more super heavy (to add to the 4 imperial SH tanks I have). It also means my T-hawk is going to be repaired and stuck on a base to play with :)

(on the downside I might not be tempted to get the titan maniple so quickly now...)
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Re: Stronghold Assault and Escalation

Postby The Kremlin » Tuesday 10th December, 2013 3:23 pm

I suspect insufficient bubblewrapping to protect from Fire Dragons may have been the issue there... Also TauDar :-p

(I'm in the "wait and see" camp on Escalation, I'm just also enjoying the discussion.)

I do agree on the book keeping, would be nice to be able to have a state between "fine" and "explosion of battlefleet-gothic-esque comedy proportions".

I'd be interested to read the new missions at some point. As an amused aside, due to their using a tournament mission/rulespack for the revenant vs chaos game that inspired a lot of this discussion, the chaos actually won, despite being nearly annihilated! That's to do with the VP for damaging the superheavy counting vs primary whereas first blood, linebreaker, warlord all counted secondary only.

(Further aside: I really like the mission combinations some competitive 40k uses and would quite like to try them out. Seems like they lead to a more interesting game, especially in games that'd otherwise be relic or emperor's will.)
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Re: Stronghold Assault and Escalation

Postby noodle » Tuesday 10th December, 2013 3:34 pm

I suspect insufficient bubblewrapping to protect from Fire Dragons may have been the issue there... Also TauDar :-p

like Taudar can't remove this in a turn. But yes I could have slightly moved the infantry I had so that I had 2 lines of "protection". Then they would have been removed in turn 1 and 2 instead of just turn 1. Had the Shadowsword been entirely castled with my army, with me completely disregarding the objectives, then I think I could have survived another turn, maybe two, perhaps even D-ing his fire dragons...

If I had played negatively, I might have been able to prevent him from wiping me out, but I would have had maybe one objective (likely none). I still can't fire at what I can't see, so I couldn't wipe him out. It may be worth my having another go - this time going all out to save the shadowsword rather than trying to kill broadsides... We shall see.

As an amused aside, due to their using a tournament mission/rulespack for the revenant vs chaos game that inspired a lot of this discussion, the chaos actually won, despite being nearly annihilated! That's to do with the VP for damaging the superheavy counting vs primary whereas first blood, linebreaker, warlord all counted secondary only.

Oh... Well I didn't watch it... So, what is the issue if chaos won?! Was the eldar player having too much fun to remember to win? :D

But yes I can show you the missions. The super heavy always gives away a VP per 3 HPs anyway...
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Re: Stronghold Assault and Escalation

Postby Sam » Tuesday 10th December, 2013 4:23 pm

Talorian wrote: So let us instead focus on the 7 inch S10 AP1 ignoring cover blast primary weapon which is going to do just as much damage as most D Weapons will. ;)


Hear hear! Now that's scary as hell!

noodle wrote: Was the eldar player having too much fun to remember to win? :D


Easily done :oops:
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Re: Stronghold Assault and Escalation

Postby The Kremlin » Tuesday 10th December, 2013 4:29 pm

Hmmm. I wonder if I can find 35 points for the second mastery level on my Telepath Librarian...
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Re: Stronghold Assault and Escalation

Postby IronWithin » Tuesday 10th December, 2013 6:40 pm

noodle wrote:
Oh... Well I didn't watch it... So, what is the issue if chaos won?! Was the eldar player having too much fun to remember to win? :D


I thought it ended in a draw? The only reason Chaos god anywhere was because they had Be'lakor and Puppet Mastered the Revenant. The Chaos and the Eldar army killed nothing, the Revenant killed [i]everything. Eldar got first blood, and Chaos inflicted 4 HP's on the Titan which is worth 1 VP, so it was a draw. Without puppet master, the Chaos Daemons would have been slaughtered.

The chaos Lord of Battles is 900 points as well in your list. well 888 but with upgrades it's over 900.
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Re: Stronghold Assault and Escalation

Postby Rick » Tuesday 10th December, 2013 11:38 pm

Talorian wrote:So let us instead focus on the 7 inch S10 AP1 ignoring cover blast primary weapon which is going to do just as much damage as most D Weapons will. ;)


Yes, of all the things I've heard about this is the one that concerns me most (revenant aside :)) and I just don't think it belongs in a normal 40k game. Unless you've put all your eggs in one basket a single D weapon is potentially unpleasant but can be dealt with.

Sam wrote:Some players will be working to a tighter budget than others - they may simply find it unfeasonable* to purchase a Lord of War, or additional anti-Lord models/units for their armies, to keep up with the evolution of the game. This I do find sad and worrying - I don't want to see people priced out of the hobby.


I think its already too late for that. I certainly don't see how an average student is expected to enter the hobby at current prices. Speaking personally GW haven't exceeded my capacity to afford the game, but they are exceeding my willingness to.
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Re: Stronghold Assault and Escalation

Postby IronWithin » Tuesday 10th December, 2013 11:43 pm

I think Rick's hit the nail on the head, Students I think continue the hobby when they are already hopeless plastic crack addicts.

Things is with the S10AP1 ignores cover,, invulnerables still apply. So really they don't to Screamer stars, and any other horrific combo's with invulnerable saves.
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Re: Stronghold Assault and Escalation

Postby noodle » Wednesday 11th December, 2013 9:36 am

I'll have to try out the giant pie ignores cover tank then ;) they need testing. The bane hammer has str 10 ap 1 ignores cover massive blast, range 36". Worse is the storm sword - apocalyptic blast str 10 ap 1. Both range 36" so people playing that will need to think up ways to deal with it...

As for affordability the game is already expensive, and I don't think lords of war make that worse. Anyway you can build a thunder hawk for £15 ;) get scratch building :P lords of war are easier to build than smaller models...
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Re: Stronghold Assault and Escalation

Postby Talorian » Wednesday 11th December, 2013 10:20 am

On the financial point, aren't the GW plastic super heavies are about the same price as Wraith Knights and a little more than the Riptide and we have seen plenty of those being fielded by the Students. Forge World kits are more expensive, but you can certainly get a good chunk of them for under £100.

GW are also aiming at getting people hooked in their younger years when mummy and daddy hold the purse strings, I'm sure that most of us got into this long before we came to Uni. From my experience not many people start playing Wargames at Uni, they normally give it up when they come to Uni for partying, drinking and other things cool kids do.

I'm sure I can wedge in the Phantom for escalation, Apocalypse Blast SD and 6 SD Large Blast shots, plus some missles and a bright lance just because ;)
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Re: Stronghold Assault and Escalation

Postby Sam » Wednesday 11th December, 2013 11:47 am

noodle wrote:I'll have to try out the giant pie ignores cover tank then ;) they need testing. The bane hammer has str 10 ap 1 ignores cover massive blast, range 36". Worse is the storm sword - apocalyptic blast str 10 ap 1. Both range 36" so people playing that will need to think up ways to deal with it...


The Banehammer is scary, but the Stormsword is terrifying!

The only saving grace is that, as a self-propelled gun and not a tank, the Stormsword may have to expose weaker armour facings to aim at the desired target.
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Re: Stronghold Assault and Escalation

Postby The Kremlin » Wednesday 11th December, 2013 12:32 pm

TBH the ignores cover scares me a lot more than the 7" over 5" template (those are what apocalyptic and massive blasts are, right?)

Then again, I do run whole armies that rely heavily on cover saves.
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Re: Stronghold Assault and Escalation

Postby Sam » Wednesday 11th December, 2013 12:39 pm

I think the Apocalyptic blast is the 10" template. Like the Banehammer, the Stormsword siege cannon also has Ignore Cover special rule.

So it has the same killy power as Banehammer, covering twice the area! :o
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Re: Stronghold Assault and Escalation

Postby Talorian » Wednesday 11th December, 2013 1:03 pm

Massive blast is 7 inch template, Apocalyptic blast is the 10 inch template. The 15 inch template is the apocalyptic mega blast and has different strength and AP values depending as to which ring you are in.

AP 1 and ignoring cover means that it's going to upset an awful lot of things and the larger template means it's going to hit a lot of things. As a primary weapon it effectively has tank hunters as well.
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Re: Stronghold Assault and Escalation

Postby Comrade_Nikolai » Wednesday 11th December, 2013 2:07 pm

noodle wrote:like Taudar can't remove this in a turn.

Generally only if they can see it, also it doesn't matter as the firedragons have to get there in the movement phase; if your bubblewrap stops them landing close enough to the shadowsword then it doesn't matter if it doesn't last till the end of the shooting phase.

noodle wrote:If I had played negatively,

I would describe it as "playing conservatively". Think of it as disengaging your ships in gothic, if you're losing, make sure to lose by the smallest margin possible.
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Re: Stronghold Assault and Escalation

Postby noodle » Wednesday 11th December, 2013 4:29 pm

To make reasonable bubblewrap I need more than 3 squads... Oh whats this? Two more cadian batalion boxes?* :D

A self propelled gun with a 10" str 10 AP1 ignores cover blast weapon is a little terrifying. Get the point about facings, but armour 13 side... Ooh thats so much worse (!)

*I was actually considering the second infantry platoon before the arguments about Lord of War. They are cheap and annoying and make a good shield for normal tanks too.**

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Re: Stronghold Assault and Escalation

Postby Sam » Wednesday 11th December, 2013 5:19 pm

noodle wrote: A self propelled gun with a 10" str 10 AP1 ignores cover blast weapon is a little terrifying.


Maybe I should start that Death Korps army I always wanted... a Stormsword would be a nice easy way to spend points fast and keep the model count down! :lol:
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