Stronghold Assault and Escalation

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Stronghold Assault and Escalation

Postby IronWithin » Thursday 5th December, 2013 11:18 am

So Natfka posted a first look at the rules for these two:

http://natfka.blogspot.co.uk/2013/12/an ... n-and.html

Bloody hell. D-weapons in regular 40k. Well the Lord of Battles is looking nice, Macro Cannons on the Aquila Strongpoint are looking scary as hell. No Titans it seems though (which is a good thing, we'd run out of board.

Though I think it's a little rich asking us to spend another £50 on what they are saying are new core rules.
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Re: Stronghold Assault and Escalation

Postby Talorian » Thursday 5th December, 2013 12:05 pm

there are plenty of other games where you have to buy umpteen core rulebooks in order to get full sets of rules for the games, so it's not as though they are coming up with a new way of parting geeks from their money.

I've read that the D Weapons table is not the same as the one in Apocalypse, but if it is, then it's a good way of dealing with hideous monstrous creatures. You will need to factor in that most Super Heavies start at around 350 points, so aren't the sort of thing you're likely to see in a 1500 point game.

I say boooo to no Titans, would be nice to use mine more often.
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Re: Stronghold Assault and Escalation

Postby IronWithin » Thursday 5th December, 2013 12:56 pm

I personally wouldn't mind too much about titans in larger non apoc games
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Re: Stronghold Assault and Escalation

Postby noodle » Thursday 5th December, 2013 1:08 pm

I hope they fix the "fine, fine, fine... MEGA EXPLOSION" rules for SH in 40k (expected)
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Re: Stronghold Assault and Escalation

Postby noodle » Thursday 5th December, 2013 1:13 pm

If you use a Lord of War your opponent receives a +1 bonus to Seize the Initiative and for every 3 Hull Points or Wounds you cause on a Lord of War choice you gain +1 (like Slay the Warlord, First Blood, etc).

- So if true, I take a baneblade and it is effectively worth an objective... Not playing relic with that! :D

- Also it said no reavers, but maybe the slightly smaller titans get in?
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Re: Stronghold Assault and Escalation

Postby IronWithin » Thursday 5th December, 2013 1:54 pm

noodle wrote:I hope they fix the "fine, fine, fine... MEGA EXPLOSION" rules for SH in 40k (expected)


I hope so, the current buildings damage table is a little silly (it's more dangerous for a unit of Guardsmen to be in a bunker than in the ruins of a bunker).

Personally I think that only ordinance weapons could make buildings suffer the damage they currently do. Melta Weapons and the like should put holes in them (allowing them attack the inside of the building). The cool cinematics of a Hive Tyrant carving into the bottom floor of a building with people on the stairs etc. (Then, y'know the doomed guardsman calling down a bombardment on their own position to kill it)
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Re: Stronghold Assault and Escalation

Postby Comrade_Nikolai » Thursday 5th December, 2013 3:44 pm

Wow, I guess I can feel less guilty about taking Tau now... and they just got a bent datasheet.

God, the potential for cheese here is immense. I guess its a matter of how much money you want to spend or how quickly you quit and change to a game without the constant customer gouging...
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Re: Stronghold Assault and Escalation

Postby noodle » Thursday 5th December, 2013 3:55 pm

I think "tournament players" will struggle with these expansions, not understanding they are intended to enhance the game not break it totally. For a long time people have wanted to use their "pretty models" in 40k and not "just" apocalypse (in fact, we used to use Super Heavies in "normal" games of 40k before apocalypse was "invented" - e.g. 1500 + baneblade vs. 2000 pts etc). Last time we played this it wasn't massively broken (though D weapons didn't exist). Interestingly a Shadowsword + 1500 points of guard would have been a more even match up vs. Tom's monster list for example!

OK so they've made it "core rules" so that people (children mostly) can actually play the rules. As soon as something is "players' discrection" its worthless because the people who percieve they are worse of just whine and don't let their opponent play. OK so make the rules "official" to stop souch whinery.

However I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of tournaments banned escalation (and formations). The "official" nature of the rules is to allow these things in "social" play.

As far as "customer gouging" is concerned - maybe. The advent calendar is. Adding small "special" rules to handy boxed sets ;) which actually aren't all THAT powerful. But its not on a scale anywhere near Battlefront. They spew out so many rules supplements my brain actually hurts trying to think of how many there are.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flames_of_ ... ourcebooks (the mind actually boggles)

But yeah, if you think escalation is a license to cheese, go pick another game, because no one will want to play you at 40k If you use it like that!

*"you" meaning whoever doth cheese with this.
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Re: Stronghold Assault and Escalation

Postby The Kremlin » Thursday 5th December, 2013 5:11 pm

Rules for formations I'm not a fan of - seems like a sales tool, as others have said. "Look, shiny box set right before Christmas". The Tau one looks bent just because it's 6 broadsides and a riptide - they'd be bent *without* extra rules. This said, nobody was taking that before, so hopefully nobody will now either. The flier one - seems solid, but given the Carcharodons' record so far it would seem like not too much to worry about? Time will tell.

I actually really like, though, that they've done rules for Be'Lakor. Characterful bit of game background given cool rules, and the model is gorgeous, so I approve of this.

Superheavies in 40k? Doesn't sound like my idea of fun but I'll wait to see how it has an impact before worrying. Could be great, seems in my head most likely to be something people arrange in advance for fun narratives, at the society. So, again, if someone cheeses with it we'll deal with that as and when it occurs, I imagine.

Stronghold assault? Hey, cool, some people might bring some interesting terrain. Will wait to see actual rules.
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Re: Stronghold Assault and Escalation

Postby Comrade_Nikolai » Thursday 5th December, 2013 5:14 pm

Duncan, I actually agree with you. My problem is that D-weapons are just so good that I'm worried the game will just go to who spent the most money on a forgeworld toy. I'm really hoping they've toned them down in this. I really don't want to spend more money on GW stuff, but I also don't want to feel hamstrung by not doing so...

I just can't help feel cynical about this just being about getting as much money out of customers as possible.
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Re: Stronghold Assault and Escalation

Postby noodle » Thursday 5th December, 2013 5:39 pm

I will take the formation, with my guard. It will be a theme based thing and not a chisel (in fact its WORSE than what I was planning as it has fewer troops... anyway)

Jake - I like super heavies in SOME games of 40k as it broadens the campaign narrative and makes games different. I firmly advocate agreeing with your opponent if the game uses fliers and/or Super heavies... I do not advocating people taking "trick" lists to try and outspam/power their opponent... Unless its me. I'm allowed to spam :lol: (semi serious - I spam sub optimal choices as a theme)

As for formations... yeah blatantly a plug for obvious boxed sets BUT I don't think the special formations are vastly better than what you could take instead... 6 broadsides and a riptide... Was anyone taking that before it got better? Or were they taking 3 broadsides and a riptide... I suspect the latter. 6 broadsides = not enough janky crisis suits :D

My problem is that D-weapons are just so good that I'm worried the game will just go to who spent the most money on a forgeworld toy.

**As opposed to the lates GW toy (cf: riptide, wraithknight :D )

1 - lets read the book to see if there are other things with D-weapons
2 - lets check the D-weapon rules are the same...
3 - D-weapons are no better vs. my guard than normal tau weapons, so I am underwhlemed by them... Oh but they can kill giant monsters I struggle to deal with and make my guard games vs. Tau/eldar slightly more balanced... hmmm
4 - One D-weapon is all which you'll likely be able to take. Don't want to face one? Force down to 1500 or 1650, I doubt people can use it then...
5 - Lets try it with people like me using supers and see if it breaks the game (I bet not). Then lets see if we can get someone to "gloves off" break it and cheese up so we know where the line is...

Also... If anyone wants to see said new rules, come ask me.
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Re: Stronghold Assault and Escalation

Postby Talorian » Thursday 5th December, 2013 5:44 pm

Of course the formations are a sales tool, I looked at the Eldar box and went, you know what, if I didn't already have all of that stuff and don't want/need anymore I would totally buy it. Now that I'm expecting a formation to come along for it, will mean that I'm quite happy that I already have it, but I'd have been even more tempted to get it if I had wanted another Wraith Knight, some more Wraith Guard etc.

I really want to use my Forge World models more often, some of them, such as my Warhound Titan are very points heavy, but as there's no D weapons involved, they probably won't get their points back, but if they don't die, they are quite a good way of standing on objectives and really stopping anything else from getting close.

All games companies sell lots of rules and lots of models and there are plenty of big shiny things coming out. But as with any games you play within your means, however just because you don't want to do something, doesn't mean that everyone else won't want to do it. I'm fully expecting people to start looking into the Super Heavies for their factions and start spending money on them.

D Weapons will balance out the hideous monster spam that we are seeing at the moment, oh, you have flying Daemons/Riptides/Hive Tyrants/Wraithknights , well now you have none. Though as I said earlier, I've heard that D Weapons are toned done for this expansion, so won't be as good as they are in Apocalypse.
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Re: Stronghold Assault and Escalation

Postby noodle » Thursday 5th December, 2013 5:46 pm

I've heard D-Weapons are still just as good (but still dont work on a 1... which means mine dont work). Will bring supers on sat to test if its out
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Re: Stronghold Assault and Escalation

Postby Morph » Thursday 5th December, 2013 5:52 pm

Talorian wrote:D Weapons will balance out the hideous monster spam that we are seeing at the moment, oh, you have flying Daemons/Riptides/Hive Tyrants/Wraithknights , well now you have none.


I'd say that's exactly my worry if D-weapons go into 40k unchanged. Killing a big expensive model straight off should be hard work. And if someone just takes one monster and doesn't spam? Then they are even more screwed, they need more monsters to deal with the possibility of one shot kills.

I do like the idea of the fortifications, and certain super heavies I can live with. But will wait to see the rules.
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Re: Stronghold Assault and Escalation

Postby Rick » Thursday 5th December, 2013 6:20 pm

I'll wait and see. Any issues can easily be resolved by respecting the fact that some people might not want to play against ultra powerful models in small games and checking with them before hand. Technically anything is opponents consent after all (your opponent has to consent to play you). I can see this mainly being used to play slightly larger games (2500 or 3k). Or maybe "mini apocalypse" with 2 a side?

I can see a superheavy being a liability - they will use up a huge chunk of points in small game and get focused down by the enemy army, but I'm sure we'll soon discover some units that are an issue (because they can't be dealt with or are simply too powerful).

I think my barbed hierodule might make quite a good superheavy for normal games as its under 600pts and not stupidly impossible to kill.
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Re: Stronghold Assault and Escalation

Postby IronWithin » Thursday 5th December, 2013 6:58 pm

Heard a bit about what fortifications are in the Stronghold assault, Fuel Lines, Trenches and Void Shields.

Void Shields sound like they are in the Apoc rules, Armour 12 and can come back up after going down.

Trench lines have 3 variants - 1 is a 4+ cover, stubborn for units inside. One is for heavy weapons and they get to re-roll and the last ia 14 all around medium building (the bunker).

Fuel Lines allow a flamer being fired within 6" to swap assault for heavy and gain the torrent special rule.

You can use "bundled" fortifications which are groups of lesser fortifications grouped to take up one slot.
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Re: Stronghold Assault and Escalation

Postby Comrade_Nikolai » Thursday 5th December, 2013 7:41 pm

Talorian wrote:D Weapons will balance out the hideous monster spam that we are seeing at the moment, oh, you have flying Daemons/Riptides/Hive Tyrants/Wraithknights , well now you have none.

Fantastic! They have a bent toy, so you buy a bigger and benter toy and one-shot their bent toy, which was probably the only thing in their army which could take on your bent toy.
Problem solved!

Hideous monster spam isn't even remotely the problem. Tau/Eldar are.
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Re: Stronghold Assault and Escalation

Postby Talorian » Thursday 5th December, 2013 7:47 pm

And so allowing people to take that vast number of imperial super heavy vehicles will be a bad thing against Tau/Eldar how? Tau barely have any super heavies and the Eldar ones are usually very expensive, so aren't going to get taken outside of apocalypse games.
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Re: Stronghold Assault and Escalation

Postby Comrade_Nikolai » Thursday 5th December, 2013 8:30 pm

If people were only going to take super heavies against tau and Eldar I'll stop this conversation right now, but what you seem to be neglecting is the existence of Marines, Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Guard, Sisters, Grey Knights, Necrons, Dark Eldar, Chaos Marines, Daemons (actually they're pretty bent too), and Orks. (What am I missing?)
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Re: Stronghold Assault and Escalation

Postby Rommel » Thursday 5th December, 2013 8:33 pm

So this is not an expansion?

Totes having a shadowsword for the nationals then. 2+ remove your riptide/wraith knight/screamerstar/2++ re-rollable inv save dude. That seems really good.... :?
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