On the new Space Marines

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On the new Space Marines

Postby The Kremlin » Friday 30th August, 2013 6:07 pm

Surprised to see no discussion!

Looks like my White Scars might get quite a bit better. How much better, I might have to play a few games to see.

(Gasp, me playing non-Fantasy games, etc etc).

Anything caught anyone else's eye?
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Re: On the new Space Marines

Postby Morph » Friday 30th August, 2013 7:33 pm

Well my Salamanders with Vulkan don't look too different (maybe even worse since he no longer master crafts thunder hammers), so I doubt I'm going to start winning all my games. Or any games. But hopefully general points decreases will let me fit another unit of something in.
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Re: On the new Space Marines

Postby Namhaft » Friday 30th August, 2013 7:45 pm

I'm liking what I've heard so far and will be ordering the book tomorrow. Thinking my air cav carcharodons will be a viable force now.
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Re: On the new Space Marines

Postby Rommel » Friday 30th August, 2013 9:54 pm

Glad the ultramarine chapter rules are once per game only. That would of been janky otherwise.

Cheaper tacticals, cheaper scouts, dedicated storms.

Downside is now my drop pods can only carry 10 men. No more ICs smuggling themselves on board with the tactical squads. There weren't enough seats anyway.

Still can't have a jump pack command squad which sucks. Yay shiny new book and plastic sternguard.
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Re: On the new Space Marines

Postby IronWithin » Saturday 31st August, 2013 11:42 am

I'm liking the look of the Space Marine Codex. I hate the new Centurions (I can haz Oblitoratorz?) which are dammed ugly but the Chapter Tactics are very nice. On paper I think the UM Chapter Tactics could be bent but that would rely upon getting troops into the right position etc. and so it's a good thing.
I'm really hoping that the basic Tac Squad isn't 14 points with free special/heavy weapons and AtskNF and Chapter Tactics, either mean that they are undercosted or Basic Chaos Space Marines at only 1 point less are overcosted.

I guess it speaks volumes on Marines popularity in that the GW website has crashed since the pre orders have gone up.
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Re: On the new Space Marines

Postby Morph » Saturday 31st August, 2013 1:51 pm

IronWithin wrote:I'm really hoping that the basic Tac Squad isn't 14 points with free special/heavy weapons and AtskNF and Chapter Tactics, either mean that they are undercosted or Basic Chaos Space Marines at only 1 point less are overcosted.


As basic CSMs are rarely seen in CSM armies, I think it's the latter.
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Re: On the new Space Marines

Postby Comrade_Nikolai » Sunday 1st September, 2013 10:39 am

I'd say basic csm were underpowered rather than overcosted. You kinda want a legion veteran/chaos infused marine to be that much, if not more, but you'd also want them to be able to do something...

I'm quite excited about the prospect of bringing my ultramarines back and not having to spend 550 points on two tactical squads. Might invest in some new toys when I see the book...

Then again, centurions are £15 each, the limited editions (not that I'd get one) are £70. Maybe buying stuff can wait till the bile that just welled up from my stomach subsides...
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Re: On the new Space Marines

Postby Talorian » Sunday 1st September, 2013 2:19 pm

That's ok Nik, I'll let you look at my limited Ultramarine book from the other side of a glass screen ;)

Read the white dwarf battle report last night, chaos marines won, but because the space marine player didn't play the scenario. Codex marines smushed the chaos good and would have won had the person playing them not been a numpty. Was a black Templars list though, so didn't see how the other chapter tactics would work.

Lots of interesting new things, will be interesting to see how graviton guns work.
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Re: On the new Space Marines

Postby Rick » Sunday 1st September, 2013 5:01 pm

Talorian wrote:Was a black Templars list though, so didn't see how the other chapter tactics would work.


So I take it Black Templars have been rolled back into the main space marine codex and won't be getting their own again?
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Re: On the new Space Marines

Postby The Kremlin » Sunday 1st September, 2013 5:10 pm

Seems so, yes - there's a bit of special stuff for them in the vanilla codex, apparently (though they can't take librarians, which seems fair enough, at least not without allying for them - seems you can ally one chapter tactics to another like they were different codexes, which is quite cool).
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Re: On the new Space Marines

Postby Morph » Sunday 8th September, 2013 10:21 am

So for a bit of analysis I recreated my old list exactly in the new codex to see how many points cheaper it would be.

40 pts. Hardly amazing. The biggest saving was from the bikes and the captain on bike (so good news Jake), but the Terminators ended up more, since you now pay to get thunder hammers over lightning claws.

The two tactical squads actually end up the same points as before. While each individual marine is cheaper you no longer get free/reduced cost special and heavy weapons and if you want a Ld9 2A vet sergeant you have to pay to upgrade.

From the point of view of the Salamanders I think the special rules are a little weaker for my current list than they were before (thunder hammers are not master crafted, flamers on vehicles don't re-roll to wound) but I might be able to make some changes.
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Re: On the new Space Marines

Postby Talorian » Sunday 8th September, 2013 1:18 pm

If you are planning on just having a shooting tactical squad though, is there a need to have the veteran sergeant? ATSKNF will mean they probably won't get wiped out so quickly and is that extra leadership really going to help a lot. Combat units I would say pay the points, tactical units not so much.

5 man tactical squads can take a special weapon, so I'm really not seeing much reason to take 10 man squads, if the 10 man could take 2 then I'd go that way to have the option in kill points games to have one squad rather than two. But the option to have 2 special weapons and 2 combi weapons is looking appealing, also means you are happy taking Razorbacks as transports.

Both Centurian units look good and I expect to see a lot of them being used.

Lots of choice, think the combat tactics will end up being the real differentiator between what's a busted army and what's a decent one, time will tell on that.

Also do you need 5 man squads of thunder hammers? I would say not, even in the last edition of the rules I didn't think so, so you can save a few points there too.
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Re: On the new Space Marines

Postby Morph » Sunday 8th September, 2013 1:44 pm

Don't get me wrong, I was just doing a straight swap for comparison and not making any choices for the list. Yes I think I'd drop the vet sergeants from tactical squads though the unit will lose a little bit of combat ability, since I wouldn't want to give a power sword or fist to a guy with 1 attack. I think I will still be taking 10 men squads though to drive around in rhinos. I never feel 5 man squads really achieve much, and a razorback is a bit costly. Or maybe just take more scouts since they are cheaper than ever.
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Re: On the new Space Marines

Postby Comrade_Nikolai » Monday 9th September, 2013 9:51 pm

I've always hated the Sergeant Tax you had to pay on a tactical squad, and it really doesn't help that he can be challenged out now too. You end up with a unit that can do everything, but can't really do anything very well, so I'm quite eager to find out what a cheaper, more focused tactical squad can do... That or just take scouts and/or bikes instead...

Centurions I'm unsure about as I'm not sure what they do better than terminators. You can only get 3 in a land raider as opposed to 5 terminators, they're probably around as resilient (they're far more resilient against loads of high AP attacks but far less against power fists and plasma) so I'm undecided. But for the same cost you'll probably only get 6 attacks rather than the 10 you get from a terminator squad. (don't have the book on me right now). That and they're also a lot slower, can't deepstrike etc.

The shooty ones have a lot of potential though, I think 3 with grav cannons are pretty ace. 5 shots each, re-rolling to wound. They're pretty dire against vehicles, but the re-roll helps there a bit. Where they really shine is against monstrous creatures, which we're seeing a whole lot more of recently; riptides, wraithknights and whatever the hell the new nids are going to bring. The main problem is their range, which either requires luring people towards you (can't see that working against tau/eldar) or piling them into a landraider to get them close. Not really sure that the latter is worth it, so this will depend on how bent the new nids are.

I think the most improvement in the book has come to white scars. Their chapter tactics are good by themselves, but Khan in to give them all scout or outflank and you've got far more bodies than ravenwing, less reliance on the single model carrying the standard of devastation and better saves against AP3 shooting.

Oh. Also, I have never regretted not mixing lightning claws and thunderhammers in my terminators. They're far better against everything but hordes of Orks. Then you beg the question about what your terminators are doing fighting a horde of orks...
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Re: On the new Space Marines

Postby Talorian » Monday 9th September, 2013 10:34 pm

The three things I see with assault centurions that are better than combat termies are;

the ability to drop out of a zooming storm raven with no risk.

They have some shooting, twin linked flames and hurricane bolters at no extra cost.

S9 combat attacks with armourbane striking on initiative is nice. Especially against unwieldy AP2 attacks.
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Re: On the new Space Marines

Postby Comrade_Nikolai » Tuesday 10th September, 2013 8:30 am

Yeah, I see your point, but to be honest, I don't think 6 attacks is good enough even with armourbane and striking at initiative. I wouldn't say 10 attacks with thunderhammers from a terminator squad was good enough either, that's why I always put a character in...
The shooting is definitely good though.
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Re: On the new Space Marines

Postby Talorian » Tuesday 10th September, 2013 10:35 am

I see them as a nice alternative. The fact that they move through cover with no real penalties means that they should have a cover save a lot of the time too, so that will help their survive ability. Option of split fire also available. Would have liked to see normal devastators get that, but then that's a long fangs trick.

I think the Devastator Centurions will rule the battlefield unless folks nail them quickly. Sure they are short ranged on the grab cannons, but the missile options mean that they will have some shooting until they get closer.
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